A conversation in December 2006, with my Dad when I visited him in Princeton, NJ
I. Overture:
RVK: Well. You seem to be up early. Did you sleep well?
SPK: Hi Dad. I woke up early as usual and am online.
RVK: What’s news?
SPK: I am reading some emails from my old friends.
RVK: Good. Do I know any of them?
SPK: Indeed. CBE, Philly, NY friends and so on.
RVK: Do convey my best wishes and New Year greetings to your friends.
SPK: Will do. Also, I wanted to talk to you about the topic of probabilities and waves.
RVK: That calls for a cup of coffee. Let me brew a pot for us.
(We putz around and eventually settle down with our respective cups of coffee)
I. A LOW PROBABILITY INDEED
RVK: So, what is on your mind?
SPK: To set up the conversation, I need to use the bland term ‘cozy’ to
be a stand in for ‘birds and bees’. I also need to be slightly graphic at the outset to get to my main point quickly.
RVK: Ah, you have my interest already.
SPK: When a man and a woman get ‘cozy’, the the prospect of a particular person being born is very-very low indeed.
RVK: And your point is?
SPK: Well were it not for one particular evening in 1963, I would not be sitting in front of you today!
RVK: I get your meaning – it would have been a ‘brother’ of yours, much
like the one now.
SPK: And even more so, that had the same not happened one cozy evening in 1935, you would not be here either!
(A little bit of silence as we both ponder that thought).
RVK: We can extend your argument to say that had we both been both born in a famine stricken country, we might not even be equipped to have this conversation. Also, that there is life on this 3rd rock from the sun in a remote corner of a minor star in one of many million galaxies is astonishing indeed.
SPK: We might summarize this point by saying that while all of life on this small planet is a wonder that it happens at all, that you and I should be having this conversation is asymptotically lower on the probability scale.
II. THE WAVE AND THE PARTICLE
RVK: You have provoked me to think about how matter produces life. And also, how misleading our gross conception of matter is.
SPK (to myself): (I can say Dosa, and this is what you would say in reply!)
RVK: As you well know, what we grossly consider matter is a mass of vibrations at the micro-cosmic level. Take the photon for example. It is a fundamental unit of nature. Upon very close inspection, it acts as a wave. At a slightly farther inspection it behaves as a particle. And strangely, they are both accurate descriptions of the photon both of its nature and its behavior.
SPK: I don’t follow your meaning.
RVK: I am simply saying that what we grossly perceive as matter is not how matter is at the micro-scopic level and how we translate what we understand to be true at the micro-scopic level has to be translated into how we relate to our gross world.
SPK: You mean, for example we have to use equations to describe
micro-scopic behavior.
RVK: Indeed.
SPK: Talking about waves, I read about an interesting wave called a ‘barchan’ that exists in a desert. It is formed of molten ash from a volcano. The wind has been sweeping this mound for centuries and every year it moves a few meters. The particles are all replaced over time, because the mound leaves behind old particles as it gathers new ones, but over the centuries the form of the mound has remained the same!
RVK: Very interesting. I would love to see a picture of that. Do you realize that we living beings are a wave much like the ‘barchan’?
SPK: How do you mean?
RVK: Well think of a memory when you were a child. Lets say that was 25 – 30 years ago. There is not a single atom in your body that remains today from that day when you were a kid. Much like there is not a single sand particle in the ‘balchan’ from when it
started. So, if every atom of your material body, is completely new from when your were are child...Who are you?
SPK: So to summarize...
RVK (to himself): (Why does he want to keep summarizing? It is probably his I consultant disease!)
SPK: ..... At the micro-scopic levels we are both waves and particles, and although fundamentally, these particles ‘turn-over’, some how we maintain our identity, like the ‘balchan’ over time.
RVK: Yes, I would conclude that we are living waves progressing through
time.
(silence as we ponder this thought)
SPK: How do we then use the blunt instrument of our mind to comprehend this puzzle?
RVK: With another pot of coffee?
(we putz around for our second pot of coffee and then settle down.)
III. NOT PRAYING, WHILE PRAYING
RVK: I pray while I don’t pray.
SPK: Funny, I don’t pray when I pray. Why don’t you go first.
RVK: I am a scientist. I am a material scientist to boot. My entire day is filled with trying to understand the nature of matter. I believe that I bring a certain reverence to my work, and a certain awe to what I don’t understand. It does not freeze me. It only increases my gratitude that I have been provided the faculties to investigate what is the fundamental structure of our material existence.
SPK: So you don’t pray? I know you do...we have done prayers to-gether.
RVK: As a young man, I used to be conflicted. Science was in the lab; prayer was in the home. I view both as the same. In both cases, to crack-the-code, you need to visualize it with your entire being, training, intelligence and gifts to solve the problem at hand.
SPK: I need to think about that.
RVK: What did you mean, when you said that you don’t pray when you pray?
SPK: Do you pray to a spectroscope?
RVK: What a funny question. No!
SPK: Do you pray to a map?
RVK. No
SPK: Do you pray to a photo, painting or poem?
RVK: Not generally, no. I might when I am in a temple. Where are you going with this?
SPK: I am trying to say, that my attitude to a prayer, is the same as my attitude to a map. I read a map to drive from NY to Boston. Once I know the way, I don’t need a map.
RVK: A prayer is a tool for you?
SPK: Yes, I actively ask, what is the purpose of what I am doing, in prayer....what is the transformative event that needs to happen by doing this. i.e will I get to Boston from NY (for example) by doing this.
RVK: Turnabout is fairplay. I cant imagine that you want to understand every prayer you participate in. They why I you only pray after you understand the import and
significance of each and every word of a particular prayer. To use the same analogy of the map, you would not stare at a map just for staring sake, would you?
SPK: I don’t underestimate the loyalty to my tribe when I partcipate in prayer.
RVK: Well said.
SPK: I would like to summarize our whole conversation now.
RVK (to himself): (There he goes again!). Lets hear it.
IV. SUMMARY
SPK: It is indeed an extreme improbability that you and I are alive and having this conversation. We can view ourselves as two waves interacting with each other. And these waves are pondering what is the larger wave that they are a part of and are willing to use any
instrument in their grasp to reach that understanding.
RVK: However, I caution you to remember that this is a hypothesis that needs to be tested by facts. You should be ready to discard this if new and different facts present themselves.
SPK: I agree.
RVK: One additional thought regarding this conversation.
SPK: (Rats! He is getting in the last word!)
RVK: Any conversation is truly only possible if both sides are on the
same wavelength. There is then resonance; which we appear to have had.
SPK: That reminds me of a shloka.
RVK: It appears like you would like the last word! What is the shloka?
SPK: math-chittah madhgatah pranah; bodhayanta parasparam;
kathayantha mam nithyam; tushyanti cha ramnti chah.
RVK: And – it means?
SPK: Seekers get together in conversation and in advising each other, experience joy.
RVK: That will indeed have to be the last word.
(the phone begins ringing, the family wakes up, and preparation for an eventful day begins).
I. Overture:
RVK: Well. You seem to be up early. Did you sleep well?
SPK: Hi Dad. I woke up early as usual and am online.
RVK: What’s news?
SPK: I am reading some emails from my old friends.
RVK: Good. Do I know any of them?
SPK: Indeed. CBE, Philly, NY friends and so on.
RVK: Do convey my best wishes and New Year greetings to your friends.
SPK: Will do. Also, I wanted to talk to you about the topic of probabilities and waves.
RVK: That calls for a cup of coffee. Let me brew a pot for us.
(We putz around and eventually settle down with our respective cups of coffee)
I. A LOW PROBABILITY INDEED
RVK: So, what is on your mind?
SPK: To set up the conversation, I need to use the bland term ‘cozy’ to
be a stand in for ‘birds and bees’. I also need to be slightly graphic at the outset to get to my main point quickly.
RVK: Ah, you have my interest already.
SPK: When a man and a woman get ‘cozy’, the the prospect of a particular person being born is very-very low indeed.
RVK: And your point is?
SPK: Well were it not for one particular evening in 1963, I would not be sitting in front of you today!
RVK: I get your meaning – it would have been a ‘brother’ of yours, much
like the one now.
SPK: And even more so, that had the same not happened one cozy evening in 1935, you would not be here either!
(A little bit of silence as we both ponder that thought).
SPK: We might summarize this point by saying that while all of life on this small planet is a wonder that it happens at all, that you and I should be having this conversation is asymptotically lower on the probability scale.
II. THE WAVE AND THE PARTICLE
RVK: You have provoked me to think about how matter produces life. And also, how misleading our gross conception of matter is.
SPK (to myself): (I can say Dosa, and this is what you would say in reply!)
RVK: As you well know, what we grossly consider matter is a mass of vibrations at the micro-cosmic level. Take the photon for example. It is a fundamental unit of nature. Upon very close inspection, it acts as a wave. At a slightly farther inspection it behaves as a particle. And strangely, they are both accurate descriptions of the photon both of its nature and its behavior.
SPK: I don’t follow your meaning.
RVK: I am simply saying that what we grossly perceive as matter is not how matter is at the micro-scopic level and how we translate what we understand to be true at the micro-scopic level has to be translated into how we relate to our gross world.
SPK: You mean, for example we have to use equations to describe
micro-scopic behavior.
RVK: Indeed.
RVK: Very interesting. I would love to see a picture of that. Do you realize that we living beings are a wave much like the ‘barchan’?
SPK: How do you mean?
RVK: Well think of a memory when you were a child. Lets say that was 25 – 30 years ago. There is not a single atom in your body that remains today from that day when you were a kid. Much like there is not a single sand particle in the ‘balchan’ from when it
started. So, if every atom of your material body, is completely new from when your were are child...Who are you?
SPK: So to summarize...
RVK (to himself): (Why does he want to keep summarizing? It is probably his I consultant disease!)
SPK: ..... At the micro-scopic levels we are both waves and particles, and although fundamentally, these particles ‘turn-over’, some how we maintain our identity, like the ‘balchan’ over time.
RVK: Yes, I would conclude that we are living waves progressing through
time.
(silence as we ponder this thought)
SPK: How do we then use the blunt instrument of our mind to comprehend this puzzle?
RVK: With another pot of coffee?
(we putz around for our second pot of coffee and then settle down.)
III. NOT PRAYING, WHILE PRAYING
RVK: I pray while I don’t pray.
SPK: Funny, I don’t pray when I pray. Why don’t you go first.
RVK: I am a scientist. I am a material scientist to boot. My entire day is filled with trying to understand the nature of matter. I believe that I bring a certain reverence to my work, and a certain awe to what I don’t understand. It does not freeze me. It only increases my gratitude that I have been provided the faculties to investigate what is the fundamental structure of our material existence.
SPK: So you don’t pray? I know you do...we have done prayers to-gether.
RVK: As a young man, I used to be conflicted. Science was in the lab; prayer was in the home. I view both as the same. In both cases, to crack-the-code, you need to visualize it with your entire being, training, intelligence and gifts to solve the problem at hand.
SPK: I need to think about that.
RVK: What did you mean, when you said that you don’t pray when you pray?
RVK: What a funny question. No!
SPK: Do you pray to a map?
RVK. No
SPK: Do you pray to a photo, painting or poem?
RVK: Not generally, no. I might when I am in a temple. Where are you going with this?
SPK: I am trying to say, that my attitude to a prayer, is the same as my attitude to a map. I read a map to drive from NY to Boston. Once I know the way, I don’t need a map.
RVK: A prayer is a tool for you?
SPK: Yes, I actively ask, what is the purpose of what I am doing, in prayer....what is the transformative event that needs to happen by doing this. i.e will I get to Boston from NY (for example) by doing this.
RVK: Turnabout is fairplay. I cant imagine that you want to understand every prayer you participate in. They why I you only pray after you understand the import and
significance of each and every word of a particular prayer. To use the same analogy of the map, you would not stare at a map just for staring sake, would you?
SPK: I don’t underestimate the loyalty to my tribe when I partcipate in prayer.
RVK: Well said.
SPK: I would like to summarize our whole conversation now.
RVK (to himself): (There he goes again!). Lets hear it.
IV. SUMMARY
SPK: It is indeed an extreme improbability that you and I are alive and having this conversation. We can view ourselves as two waves interacting with each other. And these waves are pondering what is the larger wave that they are a part of and are willing to use any
instrument in their grasp to reach that understanding.
RVK: However, I caution you to remember that this is a hypothesis that needs to be tested by facts. You should be ready to discard this if new and different facts present themselves.
SPK: I agree.
RVK: One additional thought regarding this conversation.
SPK: (Rats! He is getting in the last word!)
RVK: Any conversation is truly only possible if both sides are on the
same wavelength. There is then resonance; which we appear to have had.
SPK: That reminds me of a shloka.
RVK: It appears like you would like the last word! What is the shloka?
SPK: math-chittah madhgatah pranah; bodhayanta parasparam;
kathayantha mam nithyam; tushyanti cha ramnti chah.
RVK: And – it means?
SPK: Seekers get together in conversation and in advising each other, experience joy.
RVK: That will indeed have to be the last word.
(the phone begins ringing, the family wakes up, and preparation for an eventful day begins).
1 comment:
This dialogue between father and son is a remarkable blend of philosophy, science, and personal reflection. It begins with the improbability of existence, a realization that every individual is the product of an extraordinary chain of chance events. From there, it expands into the nature of reality itself, exploring wave-particle duality and the way matter sustains identity over time—just like the “barchan” sand dunes, ever-changing yet maintaining their form.
Beyond the depth of ideas, the style of the conversation makes it especially engaging. There’s a wonderful mix of humor, banter, and intellectual give-and-take. The father gently teases the son’s tendency to summarize, while the son playfully anticipates the father’s response before he even gives it. This dynamic adds warmth to a discussion that could otherwise feel abstract. The exchange never becomes one-sided; both parties challenge, refine, and build upon each other’s thoughts, creating a true meeting of minds.
Perhaps the most striking element of this conversation is how effortlessly it moves between deeply scientific concepts and personal meaning. The discussion on prayer and inquiry as parallel pursuits is particularly profound. One sees reverence in scientific discovery, while the other treats prayer as a functional guide rather than blind devotion. This juxtaposition highlights how different intellectual and spiritual tools can serve the same fundamental human quest for understanding.
The final exchange about resonance in conversation is poetic. Meaningful dialogue, like waves in nature, requires alignment and mutual engagement. The invocation of the shloka at the end beautifully reinforces the idea that shared inquiry is not just an intellectual exercise, but a source of deep joy.
Three Takeaways
1. Existence is an extreme improbability – The fact that we are here, thinking, and conversing is astonishingly unlikely, making every moment worth appreciating.
2. Identity is fluid yet continuous – Like the “barchan” dune, we change at a molecular level over time, yet something essential remains intact, shaping who we are.
3. Science and spirituality are not opposed – Whether through scientific inquiry or prayer, both approaches seek deeper truths and require full engagement of intellect and reverence.
Three Questions
1. Has our view on personal identity changed over the years—do we still see ourselves as a “wave” moving through time?
2. In what ways do we think meaningful conversations, like this one, create their own kind of resonance beyond the moment they occur?
3. Do we believe that the tools of science and spirituality will ever fully converge, or are they destined to remain parallel but separate paths of inquiry?
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