Hope you enjoy this ~25 min conversation with my father, Prof. Kolluri and my classmate Venkat Raghavan on the 18-Day Mahabharatha War.
Also, a fantastic discussion ensued in the comments section below.
Also, a fantastic discussion ensued in the comments section below.
Link to podcast: https://soundcloud.com/user-844915457/mahabharat
The questions that the 3 of us discussed included:
A. Was the war, a “just war” - in its inception, its execution and its aftermath
B. Why 18 days?
C. Who was the best warrior on each side and why?
D. What was the key to victory?
E. What is the most important lesson?
F. What is the application to modern life?
G. If you were to read the Mahabharata again, what new aspect would you be looking for?
B. Why 18 days?
C. Who was the best warrior on each side and why?
D. What was the key to victory?
E. What is the most important lesson?
F. What is the application to modern life?
G. If you were to read the Mahabharata again, what new aspect would you be looking for?
40 comments:
I heard it yesterday - I liked it and it was thought provoking. I liked the following :
1 all wars are best avoided
2. All have to fight their wars
3. Draupadi’s perception is as important
4. Krishna takes on the responsibility for most adharmic acts in the war
5 Bhishma Abhimanyu Arjuna and karNa as the bravest of them all
5a. The reasons for singling out Abhimanyu as the bravest.
6 importance of branch-stories including ashravakra’s
There were more
I enjoyed every line spoken.
It brought new angles of insight. It’s the wonder of Mahabharata that each one finds a meaning that suits his nature and temperament!
It’s non prescriptive and has subtle knots that can be unravelled differently by different people.
The above are My own 2 cents.
Additionally Someone else shared the opinion below:-
The subtle thing was Krishna getting all the Kshatriyas into one battlefield and finishing them off so as to let in kaliyuga. The warriors / descendants may have maintained the primacy of dharma, had they lived on. Once they were all killed, the decline began, postponed till the time of Parikshit.
My own 2 cents on a few critical aspects are:-
While the adharmic killing of Abhimanyu brought out his glorious character to the knowledge of the world, the adharma in the killing of great Kaurava warriors was a reaping of the fruit of their past acts of commissions and omissions in disrobing a chaste woman in public. The pain faced by the Pandavas n Draupadi for the injustices heaped in them had to be felt by the perpetrators and collaborators (karma) by subjecting them to (the same pain of) injustice. Some Kauravas at least were not meant to die honourably ! The Pandavas are often judged harshly for one or two transgressions esp under explicit advice of Krishna but the Kauravas were mostly unjust towards Pandavas and mostly resorted to deceit and cunning all their life. Even if the Kauravas had a claim to power, deceitful n cunning plots to kill or humiliate Pandavas was not dharmic. But they get some sympathy for their tragic ends ! One has to read what Krishna said to karna and Duryodhana when they accused him of adharma, in their final moments ! Krishna begins saying - “so you recall the value of dharma now ! What happened to your sense of dharma when ........ (he lists all the adharma of Kauravas) “
Still we are all free to interpret dharma and the epic in our own way. There is no single idea of dharma. That’s why it’s swa-dharma, rather than dharma ?
I would also sympathise with yudishtra for agreeing to play the dice Although there are many modern interpretations of this, I recall, Maharishi vyasa tells Yudhisthira that he would be the cause of the destruction of the entire clan of Kshatriyas in a war. Yudhishthira fears that declining the invitation to play the dice could anger the Kauravas and lead to the war predicted by vyasa.
I guess there is also a subtle inner meaning to many aspects of Mahabharata like the king being blind (intellect thoroughly clouded by attachments and greed)
He too heard the Gita through sanjaya but was no better after hearing it !
Krishnan feedback:
I heard the mahabharata discussion between you, Prof and Venkat. It was good.
There is a sequel I presume!
If I recollect right, a question in your discussion was
What was the turning point in the 18 day war.
I read in a book, Abhimanyu's death is the turning point, that made Arjuna furious and go after the killers.
Before this, Arjuna was not very furious in the war.
Gautham - 2 books recommended:
Jaya is by devdutt patnaik - which is a pictorial description of the epic.
Another book:
Ajaya roll of the dice - is a book from the point of view of the kauravas- duryodhana....it is by Anand Neelagantan.
Uma:
Very interesting conversation . Thanks for sharing with me.
Some points from me..
1. I would also pick like you Abhimanyu and Karna as best warriors.
2. I agree with your Dad for no war is just war
I don't know why the number 18.
3. I would give more value and respect to Mrs. Dhuriyodhana
Also to his mother
4. Mahabharatham war is happening in everyone's day to day life
5. I agree with your Dad, face any challenge or problems HEAD ON.. Otherwise you can never find a way out..
Thanks again. Really enjoyed..
Feedback from Shankar:
Fantastic conversation .. enjoyed my walk today listening to this podcast!
My observations:
Lesson learnt? Is winning at cost the story?
Your dad talked about survival of the fittest...
A question for this century:
If we see Amazon or Microsoft, did they fight 100% ethically? To create these great companies?
Just started listening to the podcast on Mahābhārata - wonderful start and I like Prof’s reply that all wars are unjust.
On the question of significance of number 18, I am sharing my thoughts.
The original name of Mahābhārata itself was Jaya !
It has multiple meanings - as we see the direct meaning Jaya is Victory - to be interpreted as Victory of Dharma. Interestingly , there is a scheme called ‘ Katapayati Sankya ‘ used to link numerals and Sanskrit letters. It is a simple table as follows ( sending in next message )
It is used in astrology, music and many more fields in India. For example in Carnatic music , there are 72 Parent Ragas called Melakartha Ragas. These are like elements in a periodic table. The names of these parent Ragas are coded to indicate their number in sequence. For example if you take the Raga Mayamalavagaula ( the first Raga that a student learns ) - Ma is 5 and Ya is 1 - that leads to 51 , but you need to reverse the order - leading to 15. Maya malavagaula is 15th Melakartha Raga.
If you apply the same logic to Jaya , Ja is 8 and Ya is 1 - after reversing it leads to 18 !
Wonderful isn’t it ?
Jaya also is the name of Arjuna - Can we say he was the hero of Mahābhārata ?
That is the significance of 18!
Response to the suggestion that we should review Mahabharata from a female perspective:
Indeed Surya’s reading from a woman’s perspective struck me in a profound manner.
In a way, Mahabharata is hugely influenced by women characters if not entirely driven.
Mostly we tend to think of Draupadi, then Kunti and to some extent Gandhari as big influences.
But it starts with Ganga who who has mysterious ways (and her husband wasn’t allowed to question her, ask her even her identity) and who held sway over Santanu.
Then Satyavati. (both Ganga and Satyavati are great grandmas of Pandavas/Kauravas)
In fact the entire lot of five Pandavas and the hundred Kauravas were more a progeny of Saytavati than Kuru clan.
Biologically Santanu or Vicitravirya contribute none to Dhritarashtra or Pandu.
Saytavati is a lowly fisher woman!!
Her son from her first Gandharva marriage is the progenitor.
Then there is Amba who vows to kill Bhishma.
All strong women!!
Incredibly!
Who were the soldiers? They are not spoken of anywhere in the epic.
How did the war affect the common man? Was he interested?
I did not go to primary school. My sister taught me, mostly through puranic stories. One day she told me the story of Draupathi and said that Lord Krishna would come to your help wnen in distress and sought his help. That night a carpenter in my neighbourhood was beating his wife in drunken state. She was crying " Devuda, Devuda" No god came to her rescue. I told my sister that I would believe in god the day he comes to the rescue of the poor. That hasn't happened until this day and I continue to be a non-believer.
Just heard the podcast on Mahabharat.
Disclaimer: I have not read any of the epics : Ramayan/ Mahabharat/ Silapathikaram.
I have deliberately included Silapathikaram for reasons I will give below.
From an outsider look: Both Ramayan and Mahabharat are epics to glorify the God, whatever name u call.
Secondly: I am not sure , but I feel these epics did not show normal human beings as someone who can come out of his vices and try to get back to Normal life without vices. Here Silapathikaram stands out as Kovalan comes back to Kannagi.
Thirdly: Gods in the name of Rama and Krishna are allowed deviations in the name of protecting Dharma or whatever but humans are not able to take the decision without the intervention of the divine powers.
So to me the epics in today’s context sounds like ridiculing human beings who are turning out to be superhumans in either direction (Constructive/Destructive).
Somewhere in earlier discussions it was pointed that these avatars symbolises the human evolution cycle, to me there is no point in symbolising something and showing destruction of the world as the end, without giving any thoughtful solutions.
Sorry if my thoughts hurt someone sentiments , but I was not able to hold it back and hence the outpouring.
One point more point. I need to appreciate Prof.s take on Vices,
Sorry to quote Silapathikaram, it shows that even if u quit and come out of u r vices the view of the world towards u is not going to change
. Probably that is the perspective with which Prof says staying away from Vices as the most important take away from Mahabharat
I do not feel that there is anything wrong with Dev’s analysis. As we have discussed, after thousands of years, reality and fiction are intermixed and it is quite difficult to separate them.
I feel that we can only discuss human aspect. The rest is only speculation.
That is why,your questions delt with human aspects and not God aspect. You remember,we did not talk much about Krishna and his Godly aspects.
Dev -
You had not read any of the three works and would it be safe to say your impressions are more from the gist we all have been made familiar thorough stories of childhood, movies or other secondary/tertiary extracts and discussions.
In your message, I see the following questions/observations.
A. Mahabharata (MB and Ramayana) VS Silappathikaram (SIL) as comparable epics
B. SIL is secular and MB is probably not
C. There is this great message of human flaws, the morality, the reformation in SIL. MB is about gods playing around. What can a human learn from this.
Point B first.
Indeed Silappathikaram is a secular literature. In that it makes reference to multiple systems of worship and practices. We know these from mention of festivals and deities. Ilango Adigal himself probably was a Jain.
Now point A.
Why compare Silappathikaram with Ramayana or Mahabharata?
If you wanted to compare Sanskrit and Tamil works of similar scale and purport you should compare Sanskrit works such as Shakunthalam. If you thought MB as a single thread of a story of Pandava and Kaurava cousins (who are all begotten in a divine process too) and the God Krishna who plays around, you need to spend time to understand what actually MB contains.
MB contains 100,000 verses. (Much more lines) Probably the longest book ever. SIL in comparison is about 6000 lines. About 30 times smaller.
There are 100s of stories interwoven around the main story of Pandava/Kaurava. These works both in scale and purport not comparable.
C.
MB may have a lot of fantasy. SIL has too. Did not Kannagi burn down the entire city (the biggest Tamil city) of Madurai through her chaste power?
Since MB is 30’times more voluminous, and more stories, should you not expect more fantasy?
Now let me suggest something else.
If you remove all fantastic (super human ideas) MB will still stand. It will make sense.
Krishna need not be an avatar of Vishnu the God.
He can still be a king who was brilliant in strategy and who helped Pandavas to win.
The original story may have been only this.
Two sets of cousins. They hated each other. Agreed to a game of dice. The five people lost. The wife who was lost in the bet was about to be disrobed but saved by timely intervention of Krishna who was respected by both sides. The Pandavas were exiled. They came back to claim the country. This was not agreed. There was war, Krishna the brilliant strategist decided to side with Pandavas and they won. The moral, don’t give in to vices.
(Prof said succinctly this as the message; no vices)
If you ask what vices:
1Lust for power/material (land)
2Dishonoring woman (Draupadi)
3Gambling
When you look at all the divine elements and the fantasy associated with it, including the gods being progenitor of Pandavas through Kunti, I can give you some ideas on how you can remove the fantasy and derive realistic interpretation.
BUT YOU MAY SAY WHY IN THE FIRST PLACE IT WAS WRITTEN WITH LOT OF FANTASY?
This is what you have to know. The whole of MB as we have now (1 lakh verses) may not have been the work of one author. And may not have been written at one go or written in the same time period. Do you know Bhagvad Gita which is part of MB, is dated later in terms of version of Sanskrit than the verses describing other parts of the war?
There is a lot to say here. I will mention a few.
The characters and stories of MB are found in several versions and told by several authors in not just Vedic religion, but in Buddhist and Jainism works too!!
The MB that we have today is probably a big mix. A lot of interpolation. MB whether its core or ancillary stories have been in circulation for 3000 years in India.
A lot of mention of MB and its characters occurs in Vaishnavite prabandham which is about 1400 years old.
So .... here are the 4 key observations from Dev
1️⃣
*Both Ramayan and Mahabharat are epics to glorify the God*
2️⃣
*These epics did not show normal human beings as someone who can come out of his vices and try to get back to Normal life without vices. *
3️⃣
*Gods in the name of Rama and Krishna are allowed deviations in the name of protecting Dharma but humans are not able to take the decision without the intervention of the divine powers. *
4️⃣
*To me the epics in today’s context sounds like ridiculing human beings without giving any thoughtful solutions.*
Ok let’s see if we can address these 4️⃣ fair observations.....
1️⃣
The divine IS present as Rama & Krishna and they are actors. They ARE glorified.
However, neither epics are really for or about their glorification. Rather they are also players in the human drama.
In contrast, for example, the Bhaghavatam is a text to glorify the divine.
Thus, it might be a lost opportunity to have not read two great epics by dismissing them as texts for the glorification of the divine.
You could say that as a secularist of the Bhagavatham, but it is a lost opportunity with the Ramayan and Mahabharata.
Indeed, if it satisfies you, you could alternate between the two great Greek epics
I suggest
Illiyad
Ramayan
Odyssey
Mahabharata
(Be warned that will be 5 years of your life!!! 😎)
2️⃣
This is a puzzling demand.
So we want the Mahabharata to show how one can stop smoking? It’s not WebMD, no?!
Rather they are showing the consequences of vices and all the chain reactions of them.
Rather than a cure for gambling or alcohol, I believe you are meant to reflect on the consequences of these vices and make your own judgements in your own “kurukshetra”
This is what I mean when I mentioned in the podcast that my main takeaway was that as humans each and everyone of us WILL face a moral dilemma in our lifetimes and we need to dig deep and find the courage to take the right (dharmic) action ...
3️⃣
True.
I think my Dad’s response here is fair.
Over very long history everything gets mixed up.
I would read it with a “light touch”
4️⃣
You have clearly stated that you have read neither epic... so that’s fair.
But I think if you were to carefully read the story lines and characters of
Abhimanyu
Karna
Ekalavya
Draupadi
Sakuni
Drona
Etc
I assure you with great confidence that you will not have the impression that neither these characters, any hum being or human affairs is ridiculed in either text.
My summary:
Since you have read neither text, I heartily recommend you sample them.
Two good starting points:
Translation by Kamala Subramaniam (written with contemporary idiom)
The difficulty of being good by Gurcharan Das who dissects the moral dilemma of each of the major characters.
Dev - I hope you feel I have done justice to your observations.
All this is rather esoteric to Westerners.
For instance, the central themes of the Iliad/Odyssey are "love and friendship, fate and free will, and honor." The main theme of the Mahabharata 'is that of Dharma. In fact, the author Vyasa says himself that the purpose of the Mahabharata is "to engrave dharma in the minds of men."'
And so while the West's bias is towards individualism and the ego as means to overcome 'fate' the East sees these as corruptions of the divine order:
Krishna counsels Arjuna, beginning with the tenet that the soul is both eternal and immortal. Any "death" on the battlefield would involve only the shedding of the body, but the inner soul is permanent. Krishna goes on to expound on the yogic paths of devotion, action, meditation, and knowledge. Fundamentally, the Bhagavad Gita proposes that true enlightenment comes from growing beyond identification with the Ego, the "False Self," and that one must identify with the Truth of the immortal Self (the soul or Atman). Through detachment from the material sense of Ego, the Yogi, or follower of a particular path of Yoga, is able to transcend his illusory mortality and attachment to the material world and enter the realm of the Supreme.
Both, it seems to me, have a piece of the Truth. And both can caught up in the errors of not realizing that they have only a piece.
You said something about me bridging the East/West divide with my comments on your podcast.
But I only do so intellectually. You live it.
You’re interests include the spiritualism of the East and the individualism of the West.
A swami interested in the singularity.
Friends- Great exchanges from everyone on Mahabharata!
A couple of pointers before I state my responses.
1. Cheenu’s comment “It’s the wonder of Mahabharata that each one finds a meaning that suits his nature and temperament!” needs to be framed! What a profound statement!
2. Srikrishnan bringing out a relationship of the number 18 with Carnatic Ragas is truly a revelation.
3. Very thoughtful questions by Dev. I’ll respond separately.
A. Was the war, a “just war” - in its inception, its execution and its aftermath
While I concur in general with the idea that any war is not just, I have to acknowledge that the Mahabharata war was very much justified since it couldn’t have turned out any other way, thanks to Duryodhana’s adamance which left everyone with nothing short of a Hobson’s choice. Despite Krishna’s repeated attempts to negotiate to avert the war, he wouldn’t give the Pandavas even a parcel of land the size of a pin head! Besides that, he favored war. Obviously, would we expect the Pandavas to run away? The bad elements have to be eliminated from the system and so, yes, the war was necessary. The quotes by Lord Krishna (verses 7 & 8) of chapter 4 Gita precisely say this. Source: https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org
BG 4.7: Whenever there is a decline in righteousness and an increase in unrighteousness, O Arjun, at that time I manifest myself on earth.
BG 4.8: To protect the righteous, to annihilate the wicked, and to reestablish the principles of dharma I appear on this earth, age after age.
B. Why 18 days?
I was impressed with Srikrishnan’s brilliant response on the significance of this number in Carnatic music. Haven’t heard this one before. Saw the responses from everyone to this which I’ve heard before and I’ve got nothing new to add.
C. Who was the best warrior on each side and why?
(For the Pandavas) Abhimanyu - Unmatched, in my opinion. Without any regard to his safety, with no one knowledgeable about the exit path from Chakravyuga (other than his dad who was kept away distracted - another cunning scheme by Kauravas), he not only entered his death trap but put on a valiant fight as a lone warrior against all the heavy hitters!
(For Kauravas) Bhishma- Needs no explanation. Killing machine! Nothing could come even close to him, when he was bearing arms - leave alone, destroy him.
D. What was the key to victory?
Making Bhishma and Drona NOT use their weapons.
1. Bhishma himself hinting at the very strategy of how to bring him down, to the Pandavas, on the night of the 9th day of war. With his vow not to kill the Pandavas and his boon to choose death when needed, he was actually invincible, leading to a stalemate situation.
2. Drona also had to be ‘lied to’ (although it was still the truth but masked) in order to discard his weapons.
E. What is the most important lesson?
Preservation of Dharma (Righteousness)
F. What is the application to modern life?
Too many to list but let me just state the obvious one word. Gita.
Ok. I know that response might not please everyone. So here it is in a nutshell.
1. As one great saint said, we all suffer from ‘Arjunavitis’ syndrome 😀(the dilemma experienced by Arjun as he was confronting the situation to kill his dear/near) everyday in our lives. Such dilemma creates a warped sense of justification which would lead us to shirk our responsibilities. We need to be cognizant of that delusion and focus on performing our duty.
2. Stay clear off the following evils - Kama (Lust), Krodha (Anger), Lobha (Greed), Moha (delusion), Mada (Pride) and Matsarya (Jealousy). The key is to identify when these thoughts crop up and rein in on them.
I’ll leave with these for now.
G. If you were to read the Mahabharata again, what new aspect would you be looking for?
There are so many incidents and episodes which are not commonly known, with deeply entrenched values which I have come across over the years of learning Mahabharata. I’m inquisitive about learning Draupadi’s perspective.
Dev- You never said anything to hurt anyone. Questioning is your prerogative and in fact, important for learning.
On your first point “From an outsider look: Both Ramayan and Mahabharat are epics to glorify the God, whatever name u call”, here’s my take:
Whether we choose to believe whether they really happened or they are the figment of a fertile imagination, they serve to tap into our intellect (something only humans are endowed with) and use our discriminative ability to make the right (ethical) choices in all walks of life.
Ramayana exemplifies a perfect human being. I know that several people have reservations about accepting Ram as the epitome of perfection, but a good read into the books written in many languages, would throw light on any misconceptions.
Sure, deification of The Almighty in forms is certainly a part of these epics but that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
For your second question on vices, no, there’s no divine intervention at play. For example, as much as a virtuous person that he is, Yudhisthira is known to have an addiction to gambling. He puts it under the guise that it’s a dishonor to refuse an invitation to a game of dice. The funny part is that he feels so lowly of partaking in that game with his brothers and cousins that he tries to hide it from Krishna! But you know the consequences - Yudhisthira losing everything, and being driven away to the forest along with his wife and brothers. So, Krishna doesn’t come to his aid to play the game of dice because he was not invited (If He did, obviously Shakuni would’ve been no match). Anyway, the point is that everyone operates by free will and if one chooses to get succumbed to the vices, he/she does it on their own cognizance. You may want to refer to ‘Uddhava Gita’ if you want to learn more on this topic.
Third point: I cannot think of Ram deviating from the right path... ever. One complaint I hear from folks is that he killed Vaali from behind. Now, it’s a long story but let me summarize it briefly. Vaali - for all practical purposes, committed a lot of atrocities by forcefully seizing his brother Sugreeva’s kingdom, his wife and his family and the latter was always on the run, terrified of his brother. Sugreeva approached Ram for help. The qualities exhibited by Vaali made him nothing short of a beast (an animal) and as per any hunting regulations, it is perfectly fine to kill an animal when it’s not watching. This is quoted as the explanation given at the time of Vaali‘ s death upon his request.
Now, as far as Krishna is concerned, a long time ago, I used to feel the same way you do, and was ill at ease about treating Him as God. But having gotten some exposure to the ancient texts, my views did change.
On the epics being shown in today’s media, I agree with you. The best thing is to not watch them! With their twisted interpretations and excessive graphics, they are sickening to watch. Haven’t seen a genuinely good one from the Ramanand Sagar or BR Chopra days!
On your last point on the evolution and destruction with solutions being offered, I just had this immediate thought. I hope you watched The Titanic. In the very end, when the ship is on the verge of sinking, there’s a scene of some musicians performing on the upper deck. Amid all the chaos and the looming death, they will be performing music (their Dharma) with total aplomb and nonchalance. I leave it to your interpretation!
Susee,
Good penmanship. I agree with that part of your writing which also was my original response to Dev - *MB is not a book that glorifies god.*
But I will sound a DISCORDANT note ON most other points you make.
Firstly I would want to refrain from romanticizing of the text beyond *what already is.*
As such in my opinion, the books are always written from the *victor’s angle* and over the years the annexations and interpolations only go to make them more unbalanced. So in all these, we should first agree *what is the source* of which we are basing our arguments. Whilst the oldest MB itself has three known versions (from 24000 verses to 100,000) I am sticking to the most liberal -in that probably more favourable to Pandavas- as my base, which is the exhaustive 100000 verse version. And when it comes to Ramayana it is only *Valmiki for me.*
Before I go on with my full response, I have only these questions to ask.
1. Where did you read that Yudhsitra tried to hide his gambling session from Krishna? (you mentioned that if Krishna had played, Shakuni would be no match)
2. Uddhava Gita: if you think this was the source for the above, do you think Uddhava Gita was part of Mahabharata?
3. Vaali: you say Vaali qualifies as nothing less than a beast. You said he commuted a lot of atrocities. I hope you are referring to only the part where drives away his brother and takes the kingdom. Can you quote from Valmiki anywhere that Vaali was a not a great king? That he committed any other atrocity? And do you know which wife of Sugreeva that Vaali took? (there is a reason why I ask)
I have more to say, but after I hear from you.
Venkat- Thank you. First of all, as I had mentioned earlier, I don’t expect anyone to agree. My intent is not to get into a perpetual debate with you, as has been the case in the past. 😀 If you want to have the last word on everything, I’m glad to give it you. 🙏 Whatever I posted was spontaneous reflection on the several sources I had referred to over the years (ranging from abridged versions of texts, original texts, right down to research papers and blogs). While we exercise caution to not blindly accept everything, our discrimination acts as our best companion to glean and assimilate the data from these sources. To your ask on where I read about Krishna not coming to the refuge of Pandavas during the game of dice, yes, Uddhava Gita was the source. And no, it’s not part of Mahabharata. It comes under Bhagavatham. But how does all these things matter? Why should we be nitpicking on whether it is part of MB or not? And, I stand by whatever I had mentioned about Vaali. Your statement referencing that he was a great king has nothing to do with the discussion as I had not brought it up anywhere. There are many sources that here’s one link about Rama’s confession on killing Vaali. https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft5q2nb449&chunk.id=d0e2329&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e2329&brand=ucpress
Surya Venkat Prof Kolluri - great discussion on MB. Lots of points
Will Post detailed comments on MB podcast ... but to the main questions
1. Is the 18 day war justified?
I say wars are justified if all other options have failed and the war has to be fought to establish Dharma for the greater good of Mankind.
Let’s say the war in MB didn’t take place.
Wouldn’t it mean that people who outrage the modesty of a chaste woman, who refuse to honor their promise of giving the Pandavas what is rightfully theirs after the exile can get away with their sins?
In modern times, Lincoln opted for Civil war when all other attempts to abolish slavery failed.
2. Heroes on either side-
Karna on Kauravas and Abimanyu on Pandavss
3. Take-always from MB
If you feel strongly about the greater good, Strive to achieve it, come what may. Krishna gave up his family and royalty to guide the Pandavas to win the war. He used strategies that He himself would have avoided in his incarnation as Rama.
But maybe it goes to say in Kaliyuga which is even worse than Dwaparayuga, it is ok to use such strategies to survive and protect the deserving.
Bharani,
Thanks for taking the time to write in detail!
👍🏽👏🏽
Your writings strengthen the full fledged theistic club! (I am neither here nor there types!!!😄😄)
If right is theistic and left atheistic directionally, I’m slightly to the left of Venkat
Yours agnostically,
🤓
Whether you are on the left or right or centre; whether you are theistic, atheistic or agnostic - you are = (this 👇 + your personality / identity!)
Turiya: The fourth aspect of Atman or Self is Turiya, literally the fourth. (The other 3 being - the waking, dream n deep sleep states). In this fourth state, consciousness is neither turned outward nor inward. Nor is it both outward and inward; it is beyond both cognition and the absence of cognition. This fourth state of Turiya cannot be experienced through the senses or known by comparison, deductive reasoning or inference; it is indescribable, incomprehensible, and unthinkable with the mind. This is Pure Consciousness itself. This is the real Self. It is within the cessation of all phenomena. It is serene, tranquil, filled with bliss, and is one without second. This is the real or true Self that is to be realized. ( Thuriya is also thuriyatita - beyond the fourth and underlying all the 3. Q 2 How to real-ise that which is ever real ).
Now, I need to disappear for some time, for quoting this from the “Mandukya upanishad.
Srini - here is the song in reply!
It’s a lump to the left song from the Rocky Horror Picture Show!!
Rocky Horror Picture Show-Time Wrap (
Let's do the Time Warp again
Let's do the Time Warp again
(Narrator:) It's just a jump to the left
(All:) And then a step to the right
(Narrator:) With your hands on your hips
(All:) You bring your knees in tight
But it's the pelvic thrust
That really drives you insane
Let's do the Time Warp again
Let's do the Time Warp again
It's so dreamy
So fantasy free me
So you can't see me, no not at all
In another dimension
With voyeuristic intension
Well secluded, I'll see all
(Riff Raff:) With a bit of a mind flip
(Magenta:)You're into the time slip
(Riff Raff:) And nothing will ever be the same
(Magenta:)You're spaced out on sensation
(Riff Raff:) Like you're under sedation
🎵😎
https://youtu.be/ZanHo6Wn1H4
Thanks Surya. You have a knack of picking topics and also keeping your chain of thought while asking the right questions.
Is Ottamans conquering the Europe Just ?
I’m quite mixed on this first question in our podcast about a “just” war .... to be honest.
If you notice in the podcast, I had not expressed an opinion!
So a question for you, Dad:
Was the 1971 war over East Pakistan a Just war ?
Was the post-Independence action in Hyderabad by Sardar Patel a just action?
My position as I said in podcast is all wars are wrong
Ah you mean collateral damage is bad ...
So therefore if there is a war between two professional soldiers in a battlefield with no civilians, that perhaps could be just?
A king of one country battles another and kills the other is just. Collateral is word invented by selfish leaders who never fought a war themselves sending others to die. We need not too far for examples.
All right - if you don’t mind I will cite one more example.
And please note, that I’m still figuring out the answer to this question in my own mind...
Example - China invaded Tibet and India Mao/Nehru ...
Although they failed, should India have pushed back harder even if there were many more soldier fatalities?
No problem. There is never a complete right answer. It is good to discuss
If some country attacks you, that becomes a fight for survival not just for one person, but all persons of the country. In such a case fighting for survival is just.
I knew there was a “just” in there somewhere
Which brings me to a Ronald Reagan anecdote
A man was shown a room full of dung. He immediately dived into the dung and started flailing.
The puzzles host asked what the man was doing ...
The dung diver relied, “I’m sure there is a pony in there somewhere!!” 😅
I would have preferred some one to confirm to me that there is in fact a pony is there before I jump into it. I never plunge in to stock market blindfold!
But then they would have taken the pony away for themselves or would have paid him labor rates to get the pony... that is the entrepreneurs adventure!
True. Life is full of surprises
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