Fascinating NY Times discussion on the Topic of Praying and subsequent discussion with my Dad.
I. NYTimes Story:
Should Atheists Pray? What’s the point of prayer? Is it just for believers, or would praying be a fruitful habit for everyone?
http://nyti.ms/11R28J2
II. My Dad's Response:
Prayer for Atheists Ha?!
Before we attempt to answer this question let us think about two things.
1 What is a prayer and
2 Who is an atheist.
Apart from all the things that are said in the discussion, prayer has to have necessarily an object to pray for, no matter what the object is. Because, prayer without words will simply mean closing eyes and think randomly.
So, if there are to be some 'words', at least they must be coherent, logical and directed towards some thing. So, how does one who believes in nothing can close the eyes and say some meaningful words ? May be can chant 'nothing' for sufficiently long time to give him/her the other physical aspects mentioned in the prayer.
Let us look at the Atheist. From what I know about them, they believe that there is nothing beyond what we see and every thing else is purely accidental. The order one finds in the universe is all completely random. While it is true that one can neither 'prove' one way or the the other in terms of who or how the Universe has come about, it at least appears that there is a logic and order to the Universe. How it can be completely random and purely accidental is not clear.
So at least logic dictates that prayer has no meaning to atheists (Though no one can prevent any one to do what ever they want to do.). Then there are two types of atheists. Those are permanent atheists and the pseudo atheists.
I had a friend of mine. For thirteen years of my close relationship with him, he maintained that he was an atheist (in fact he used to make fun of the priest who used to come to his house to perform puja on behalf of his wife). Then one day he had a heart attack. Suddenly he became a believer in God.
For this kind of people, atheism is only a convenient way of distinguishing themselves from the rest of the people and not a deep rooted conviction of non existence of God . But for those who are real atheists, it is difficult to say whether they would even 'want' to pray!
So, my conclusion is that everyone has a right to do what ever pleases them. But to say that atheists should pray is like saying that the lion has a right to eat grass.
III. My Reply
As I think through your response, I have been trying to resolve in my mind what prayer is. Let me list some possible definitions / takes.
Supplication - a surrender to a higher authority, asking for help
Application - asking for a reward
Communion - joining and combining with a larger entity
Communication - letting one's situation be known
Confession - unloading guilt
Unity - a slight variation of communion above
As I ponder these words, I think the one I might land upon in terms of what a prayer is, might be the following.
Recognition - an awareness that I am absurdly small and my travails and happiness amount to a hill of beans. A recognition, that at the same time, I am not what I automatically think I am - I am a vast 'universe' of complex atoms, molecules, cells and germs - a biosystem that has formed with a thin veneer of an identity that somehow is me.
It is tough to be aware of this thought 24X7. I suppose, my moments of true prayer are this recognition.
I hope this is reasonable?
My Dad:
Excellent analysis. It is the combination of all the things you have mentioned plus a certain peace of mind.
Prayer combined with faith ( not religion) often leads to peace of mind and certain stability to a turbulent life.
13 comments:
My first thought about this was, talk about your fly in the bottle! Discussing something with such a wide range of meanings is a recipe for futility (Wikipedia):
Prayer is an invocation or act that seeks to activate a rapport with a deity, an object of worship, or a spiritual entity through deliberate communication. Prayer can be a form of religious practice, may be either individual or communal and take place in public or in private. It may involve the use of words or song. When language is used, prayer may take the form of a hymn, incantation, formal creed, or a spontaneous utterance in the praying person. There are different forms of prayer such as petitionary prayer, prayers of supplication, thanksgiving, and worship/praise. Prayer may be directed towards a deity, spirit, deceased person, or lofty idea, for the purpose of worshipping, requesting guidance, requesting assistance, confessing sins or to express one's thoughts and emotions. Thus, people pray for many reasons such as personal benefit or for the sake of others. Yoga is also a common form of prayer.
From this definition then it would seem that about the only way the word ‘prayer’ is not being used appropriately would be the way I’ve occasionally used when describing my post-drinking ‘cleansing’ ritual; I’m ‘praying to the porcelain god.’
And like you, my ‘praying’ – although I call it my ‘religious services’ – is watching or reading science programs that leave me with ‘awe’, even ‘terror’. In my earlier email, Why Wonder Is So Wonderful about the How wonder works piece in Aeon magazine, I included this passage:
In this respect, science shares much with religion. Gods and monsters are wondrous things, recruited to explain life’s unknowns. Also, like science, religion has a striking capacity to make us feel simultaneously insignificant and elevated. Dacher Keltner, professor of psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, has found that awe, an intense form of wonder, makes people feel physically smaller than they are. It is no accident that places of worship often exaggerate these feelings. Temples have grand, looming columns, dazzling stained glass windows, vaulting ceilings, and intricately decorated surfaces. Rituals use song, dance, smell, and elaborate costumes to engage our senses in ways that are bewildering, overwhelming, and transcendent.
But I left out this other type of spiritual feelings:
In the mid-18th century, the philosopher Edmund Burke hypothesized a connection between aesthetics and fear. In a similar vein, the poet Rainer Maria Rilke proclaimed: ‘beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror’.
Which brings to mind this Bhagavad Gita scene:
Arjuna’s doubts having been removed through a clear description of the nature of the Atman and the origin and destruction of all created things, he is now ready to behold the Cosmic Vision.
Krishna grants him the divine sight by means of which Arjuna beholds the Lord as the vast Cosmic Manifestation. The vision is at once all-comprehensive and simultaneous.
Arjuna is unable to bear the pressure of the sudden expansion of consciousness and is filled with fear. He begs the Lord to assume once more His usual form.
Then, Arjuna, filled with wonder and with hair standing on end, bowed down his head to the Lord and spoke with joined palms.
Is this not prayer?
I tend to completely subscribe to Professor's views.
Your definitions are in place as well.
If I come back to the question of whether Atheist could pray, I would say, it is her/his WISH !!
I think of prayer as a communication between a person and an object of her/his imagination and that which is of superior existence in their view.
So, if you do not acknowledge existence of superior being, what do you pray to? That is why I say, if an Atheist prays, it is merely a WISH!
Professor's point about pseudo atheists is relevant too. Atheists and atheism are perfectly fine by me, as long as they have had a conviction based on deliberation and their own scrutiny. People who suddenly turn to God after some experience are merely people who had hitherto ignored the contemplation of reality! It was just a matter of convenience.
It is another question if you ask, if prayer needs to be part of spiritual quest!
Just few comments on yr prayer bullets!!
a) Prayer is never a Surrender!!! do you surrender to yr dad?? No,,!!! We are obedient to parents and the sameway
we have to a) maintain Obedience to God !!!
b) Creating Relationship with God is very important from our heart,,We have to share as a soul partner,..Sharing openly
like the way you chat with yr parents, friends etec etc..
c) Trust God's love and compassion
d) Feeding God,..treating him living with us ( water, milk or rice)
c) Chant mantra or slokas ( god also expects that you dedicate time for him from yr busy schedule)
d) Gratitude, thankfulness ( for what we are)
e) no need to ask for reward ( We serve he rewards w/o asking)
f) to Feel sorry ofcourse when we knowingly /unknowingly hurt other soul,..
g) if anyone hurts me, deeply imagining holding his feet and cry to him,..( as if he is in me)
h) Praying for others ( when anyone in trouble)
thats the way my simple relationship with God,..the above worksout miracles,..!!!
Kanchana - his question remains... Can an atheist pray?!
Kanchana - It is evident you are very dear to Him.
You can impart peace to others!
Great!
I enjoyed your reflection on Atheists and prayer. I was fairly certain I had seen a study claiming that prayer was efficacious, but a visit to Wikipedia shows mixed results:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer
Efficacious prayer (proven to yield results) would, I think, open the door for Atheists to pray... just as they use a microwave - but may not understand all of the principles involved.
Your breakdown on types of prayer or reasons for prayer was helpful. As a pantheist, I have long avoided saying "I'll pray for you" when people are suffering... using instead phrases like "I'll hold you in my thoughts" ... or "your family will be in my heart" - and then I follow through with that practice in active engagement as promised. BTW - Dawkins would claim that I am actually an atheist (in "The God Delusion") who is calling "nature" his God - which is actually Atheism. I'm not sure I concur.
Eventually, I came to realize that this "thinking of you" or "holding you in my heart" is actually prayer. I'm not praying to a God for intervention... rather, I am transmitting my own good will and intention to you and your situation directly. This is prayer in my book.
It seems that you have come to a place where you seek to live in 24x7 awareness and presence... maybe a "living prayer", ay? Maintaining a state of gratitude could be considered prayer as well I think.
Praying for you, your father - and our friends on this thread
I thought this was an interesting essay.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/29/the-gospel-according-to-me/?ref=opinion
My takes are:
- if you replaced the word authentic with narcissistic, the article falls apart
- undeniably we have become a more narcissistic society; but that does not take away from the progress made otherwise
- 50s conformity gave way through the 60s to individual expression. Self actualization is a construct from this period
- also the article severely misreads gen X and beyond. Lot more emphasis on community and environment there. In that sense this is a by a boomer article, with blindfolds!
- the US is the 'givingest' nation on the planet both in total and per capita. How do the authors square that circle?
So I come to the conclusion - flawed article!
Bill - I'm not sure what these authors are railing against. I'm reading it that they aren't happy with the emerging new age "authenticity" (which he seems to imply as narcissism) nor the singular, omnipotent God that reigns over humanity. Perhaps they have spent too much time meditating on this topic? Is there a solution proposed that I am missing?
No question that a lot of post-modernism is caught up in narcissism... but I still believe that there is room for authenticity, for expression of your true self, for contact with your soul - that transcends that narcissistic quality.
Way too much discussion on a simple subject.
· Atheists don’t believe in God.
· Praying is one way communication between Man to God.
· Hence Atheists shouldn’t Pray. Or more precisely Atheists, if they are being honest to the faith, don’t pray.
BTW meditation and thinking of others isn’t prayer.
Your Dad sounds logical,..An aethists believe in nothing, could pray to nothing,..!!
This is simply because they don't believe in oneself!!! ,...
Even if you claim, that they do prayers, its like performing a hard task for them as their basic thoughts
within could be an expectation towards an outcome which is again doubting one's own belief & actions!!!
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To me Prayer in simple lines "tiny drop getting dissolved into an ocean of love" this is what i mean intimate relationship
with Supreme God,..!!Athma ( tiny drop) connecting to Paramathma ( Ocean),..For this one can be a normal person, not necessary one has to practice
To become a saint, or sadhu or a guru!! to me all these creations are also again one among other athmas performing their role in a different attire!!!
Excellent discussion ! The very fact that there are so many diverse views in itself is a testimony that the topic is worth discussing. It is always great to exercise the brain powers God ( or random events as atheists would insist ) has bestowed upon humans !
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