Conversation - Am I Real?

In this conversation a banker tries to keep up with a physicist ... 

 - Post by RVK and Reply by SPK

Am I real? There are two sides to this question. One is what we like to believe and the other - which is a possibility that we may not like to face up to.

All of us not only like to, but in fact do believe that we are real. The question of pain, pleasure, money and all the things both nice and not so nice make us believe that we are real. In fact it is quite difficult to face the possibility that perhaps we are not real! We also point out that we do make an impact on the society and great personalities like Lincoln and Gandhi and worst personalities like Hitler were alive and we do remember them. They were not a myth and that is proof that they lived and hence we must be real.

As a definition, anything that is real has to be permanent indestructible and invariable. None of the things we see around us have any or all of these qualities. Persons appear real only as long as they live. Once they pass away, they simply do not exist. So, there is nothing real about them. All the other attributes that are attached to living beings have the same unreality about them.

Then what about the matter, earth, our solar system and in fact, the whole universe? Are they real?

All matter consists of atoms which in turn consist of nucleus and electron clouds. Electrons are essentially clouds of energy and they are interchangeable between mass and energy (waves). The nucleus itself consists of number of particles both with charge and without charge. We already know that the nucleus can be smashed to release energy. Thus it turns out that the intangible ‘energy’ is the only thing that might be real. We know that energy exists in many forms - starting from the binding energy of the nucleus, to the more mundane potential and kinetic energies and all the way up to inter galactic energy.

We can also examine further about reality from the physicist point of view.  Our own earth as well as our Sun have finite lifetimes.  Our Sun is about 4.6 billion years old.  It will remain for another 5 billion years. After that, it will swell to become a red giant. At this point, it will swallow all the planets surrounding it. Later, it will shed its outer layers and the remaining core will collapse to become a white dwarf. Slowly, this will also fade to enter its final phase as a theoretical object known as a black dwarf.

Then, there are the mysterious black holes in the Universe. These are regions exhibiting such a strong gravitational pull that no particle or electromagnetic radiation can escape from it. So, what happens to the matter or even the photons (light) it swallows? Though we do not know the exact answer, it appears that in black holes, matter is crushed to subatomic state, which essentially a form of energy.

Interestingly it may have the ability to create elements such as carbon and nitrogen that are necessary for life. It appears as though black holes may responsible for our existence.

‘Dark matter’ is a kind of matter that cannot be seen with eyes or optical instruments, but accounts for most of the matter in the universe. It is believed that at the beginning of the universe, the real matter was extremely small and the dark matter was all pervasive. For some inexplicable reason, it became less and the regular matter increased. There are yet other mysterious objects in the universe called Quasars or quasi-stellar radio sources. These are extremely intense and extended sources similar to galaxies. They spontaneously emit electromagnetic energy, including radio waves and visible light. Quasars are compact regions in the center of a massive galaxy surrounding central supermassive black holes! So, there appears to be an interplay between creation and destruction of matter. As stated before, nothing that can either be destroyed or created can be real.

There is now a new theory that after all, the whole universe itself may just be a two dimensional hologram.  There is no doubt that the Universe looks like three dimensional to us. But advanced theoretical physics in recent times is challenging this assumption. The "holographic principle" states that a mathematical description of the universe actually may require only two dimensions.

What we perceive as three dimensional may just be the image of a two dimensional processes on a huge cosmic horizon. "Our universe is quite flat and on astronomic distances, it has positive curvature," Grumiller and colleagues from India and Japan have recently published an article in the journal Physical Review Letters, confirming the possibility of a flat universe. While this theory may entirely correct or not, it appears now that what all we are observing around-the whole Universe may just be an illusion.

After all, we may or may not know whether all matter and what it contains is real or a myth. But it is entirely possible that the very idea that we are real can be contested.

I will conclude this narration by an argument I used to give my students - why we are not real.

This is how it went – We do accept that our body consists of atoms. Even when we assume that all atoms are close packed (without any bonds), the total volume occupied by atoms in a cube is only 52%. The rest is empty space. This can be mathematically proved. It means that already 48% of us is nonexistent! The atoms themselves have electron clouds surrounding the nucleus. The space between the electron cloud and the nucleus which is 90% of the atom also is empty.  It means that 90% of the earlier 52 % is also empty. Which hardly leaves 2 -3% of us still to be accounted for. This relates to the sub atomic state of the nucleus which can be considered as energy instead of mass.

Thus, we, as a material object do not exist!  My students used to thump the table and say ‘what is it then’?

I used to reply, ‘neither you nor the table exist. It is all an illusion ....’

-- SPK Reply

Overall - great subject matter - indeed the only subject matter that perhaps counts in the final analysis!

Point A - everything real has to be permanent and indestructible...  

That feels like an assertion rather than a conclusion.  What I mean is, just because something is temporary, why should it not be real. In other words, in this reasoning, the 't' axis of the X,Y,Z,t frame is given too much importance.

Point B - So, it turns out that the intangible ‘energy’ is the only thing that might be real ....  

This point is confusing.  We have learned that energy and matter can turn into each other.  So giving energy prominence over matter, feels the same as giving 't' prominence over x,y,z dimensions.

Point C - is it possible that consciousness is in some way related to, or the same as energy? .....  

This is an excellent question.  It seems to me that all discussions fail at the doorstep of consciousness, which tends to be pretty difficult to get at.  Although Ray Kurzweil had a much more prosaic, yet acceptable take on this.  When I asked him about consciousness, he said, "The question regarding consciousness is fundamentally the most important question.  Indeed all of our morality and moral systems are based on this premise.  But given the pace of technological progress, it is only a matter of time that consciousness will be generated from non-carbon based life forms.  Artificial self-awareness will indeed happen.  What will happen is that as a human species we will learn to accept that, even though we will never quite eliminate the doubts we have about subjective experience being unique and not replicable."

Point D - Size of universe

The description of the vastness of the universe and our own smallness is well taken.  Any conclusions we draw should be done with humility!

Point E - 2-dimensional hologram

That is a VERY intriguing thought!

My own conclusion on this topic:  

There are layers of reality.  That is the consciousness of a human is more sophisticated than that of a grass hopper.  But both are real.  To me what is real is that we are connected at this point in space and time (x,y,z,t) to other beings and other things - through thoughts, emotions and actions.

That inter-connectedness can be best experienced, if one sets aside one's mundane absorptions (such as complaining about the morning coffee or bad service at a hotel) and really thinks/feels the connection with the rest of the surrounding environment.

I hope this is a good analysis and response?

-- RVK Reply

Your analysis is excellent and thought provoking. I would like to respond in three degrees of agreement.

First which I agree completely-All discussion ends at consciousness. We do not know at present what consciousness is.

The second is what I think may be true but I am not very sure. The levels of consciousness.Perhaps there are layers of consciousness. But If we do not even know what it is in the first place, how can we know that there may be layers? The assertion that artificial consciousness will be a reality is a little bit far fetched in my opinion.

Temporary reality is difficult to understand for two reasons. Firstly, reality is defined as such and it can not be temporary. The question that will arise if we change the definition is that, how temporary the reality can be? The answer is as difficult as the definition itself.

Finally, the question of matter and energy. Energy is fundamental and mass is not ( even if they are inter convertible). This is because energy can have many forms and most of them are mysterious and understandable while matter can be completely understood. They are like frequency and wavelength. Though they are incontrovertible, frequency is fundamental and wavelength is not.

-- SPK Reply

Ah!  That is interesting about what you say between frequency and wavelength - i definitely learned something from that!

Why don't you please write some more - another paragraph on holograms?

-- RVK Reply

A hologram is essentially a depository of complete information.

Light has two aspects. An amplitude( which decides intensity) and the other is phase. Ordinary pictures have only amplitude information which is the reason why they do not to have the entire information. A hologram is simply an interference pattern of dark and bright regions each containing  the 'whole' information. This is the reason that if a hologram is cut into two pieces, both pieces contain the whole information.

I used to tell my students that a hologram is like a class of students.  Each of the students has all the information of my lecture (assuming that they are listening!). In the context of the universe being a hologram, it comes again from the fact that it also contains all the information.

Incidentally, a hologram is NOT an illusion. It is real.

The main difference in what is described as a regular physical universe and a holographic universe is that the entire 'information' is distributed in a projection of all the information in two dimensions - just like the hologram on a credit card.

At the present time, it is still a novel thought without rigorous proof.

-- SPK Reply

My friend visiting me from Jakarta and I celebrated over a Sangria. this Friday night  I hope it does not leak through the photograph!  ha ha